Sunday, May 07, 2017

It's Time To Say Adios


CHANGE...
One of the certainties of life is change.  Most of us go through phases in our lives when things change - childhood, school, young adulthood, career(s), kids, empty nesters, retirement and... well, you get the picture.  Today I find myself at another one of those change points. 
SOME HISTORY
When I wrote my very first commentary to the Daily Pilot fifteen years ago it began a change in my life that has proven to be both positive and negative,  simultaneously - just as are most things in life.  From that embryo - and several dozen letters to the editor and commentaries in local newspapers -  this blog has emerged in a couple different iterations.  I wrote my first blog entry using a different blog host - I've referred to it as a "bare bones" blog - on July 9, 2005, cautioning us about the possibility of the use of eminent domain to facilitate change on the Westside of town.  I shifted to this site, where comments are permitted and images are accommodated,  on November 1, 2006.  Now - more than 3400 entries later, with tens of thousands of page views each month (3 million total and counting), several acknowledgements as a top blogger in the area and many new friends (and more than a few enemies) - it’s time for another change.  Although I know my efforts have made a difference in our community, it’s time for me to stop blogging.
UNANTICIPATED EVENTS
As some of you know, last year threw me a very significant curveball health-wise.  Last June a pulmonary embolism, apparently caused by a tumble I took a couple months earlier,  nearly cost me my life.  When the emergency room doctor told me I was lucky, because there were four things that could have happened and the other three would have killed me immediately, it got my attention.  Ever since that time I’ve been dealing with the after effects of that event and other little nuisances that happen during the course of this steady march to geezerdom and it’s slowed me down significantly.  Changes had to be made - including how I did this blog.
HEALTH DEMANDS...
No longer can I attend a meeting until midnight, then come home and write until dawn to meet the expectations of a few thousand people who have grown accustomed to my views awaiting them when they dragged themselves out of bed.  Now I go home, hit the sack and begin putting things together in the morning, with the end result being posted sometime after noon.  It takes longer because I must interrupt my composition to pry myself out of my chair to give this old body some exercise, lest another nasty blood clot manifest itself in a way that would have a very unhappy ending.
ANOTHER LIFE CHANGE
Last month my sweet and very patient wife - and caretaker of my new health protocols - decided to retire from the business she and her two younger brothers have successfully operated for more than four decades.  When she stopped going to the office it marked the first time in our forty-nine years of marriage that we both were out of a job - unless you count this as “a job” - and it’s been very interesting.
THE NEXT PHASE
Now we are planning this next phase of our lives together, which will include the celebration of our 50th wedding anniversary in August and much more travel to many venues we’ve wanted to visit, but just couldn’t carve out the time to do so.  And, it will certainly include many more frequent visits to our favorite getaway on the Central California Coast.  We’re getting very excited about planning these adventures.  And, after many weeks of contemplation and consultation, I just don’t see a way to fold into those adventures the time it takes to continue writing this blog.  It’s not practical and not fair to her, even if I was up to it.  And, of course, there are these nagging health issues which have forced me to abandon my personal mantra - “You only have a certain number of heart beats and none should be wasted on exercise.” - and have caused me to contemplate an exercise program that will also cut into my day.  And, so, we move on...
 I'VE ENJOYED EVERY SINGLE DAY
I’ve enjoyed nearly every single second of the time I’ve spent presenting my thoughts for you, my loyal readers.  Some of you have become more informed, others have been entertained and more than a few have been angered.  I smile when I think of all those reactions to what I write.  Perfection remains an elusive goal.  I acknowledge that I’ve not always been correct in my views, but I’ve always tried to do my homework, study the issues, attend the meetings and provide my best assessment of what I’ve seen and heard.  Some of you have agreed with me and some certainly have not, but I’ve always appreciated your thoughts and have considered them carefully as I tackled the pithy issues facing our community.  I have always appreciated the kind words from those of you who have chosen to write to me. 
APPRECIATE THE PRAISE AND SUPPORT
I’ve also appreciated the praise and encouragement from professionals in the local media.  Former Publisher Tom Johnson and editors, Bill Lobdell, S.J. Cahn, Brady Rhoades, Tony Dodero and John Canalis of the Daily Pilot, for example, have encouraged me, tolerated me, edited and published my too-wordy submissions to make them better, and have chosen me to be part of the DP 103 list of those folks they considered to be influential in our community several times.  Obviously, despite their best efforts, I have still not mastered brevity.  I have abandoned that as a goal.  Many of those editors also offered me a regular column in that fine newspaper - a dozen times, in fact - and I thanked them, but gratefully turned them down.  I’m not geared to be “edited”, nor could I write “on assignment” - I write about what interests me.  I’m also grateful to other local publications and blogs who have offered similar opportunities, and to Gustavo Arellano and the editors of the OC Weekly, who selected my blog as the Best in OC a couple times.  And, of course, I’m grateful to my friend, Byron de Arakal, whose Daily Pilot commentaries many years ago provoked my very first efforts to influence the populace.  This has all been pretty heady stuff for an old guy with marginal writing skills,  a skull full of opinion and too much time on his hands.
THE GOAL
When I began this effort - that word really doesn’t seem right, since this has been less an “effort” than a pursuit of a passion - my goal was to encourage more folks to pay attention and get involved in local issues.  I take great pride in the fact that I’ve met that goal, and then some.  More people have become engaged in local issues due, at least in part, to some of the things I’ve written.
AFTER CONSULTATION AND CONSIDERATION...
I’ve recently tested the waters about stopping this blog with a couple very wise close friends who have asked me to consider simply just cutting back - attend fewer meetings, write fewer words, post fewer entries.  I appreciate that advice and have given it a lot of thought.  However, in my opinion, a big part of the value of what I’ve been doing has to do with continuity.  Attending most important meetings, hearing the comments and seeing the players in action has given me a perspective unlike most others.  If I were to curtail those activities it wouldn’t be long before I would lose the continuity of events and the quality of this product would decline.  I’m not eager for that to happen.  I guess I’d rather stop somewhere near the peak instead of sliding slowly downhill toward the abyss of insignificance.
HANDING OFF IS NOT AN OPTION
Others have suggested I find someone else to either share the writing or to take over A Bubbling Cauldron completely.  That is not an option.  What you’ve read on these pages has been my work product, based on my observations and my opinions.  No, I will retain the domain, toss some water on the flames that keeps this pot boiling and simply let it cool.  I might occasionally resurrect this site from time-to-time, so I suggest you go to image shown above on my Home Page and click on it to use one of the readers available to be alerted when a new entry pops up.  And, I will continue to post any future entries on my Facebook page and on my Twitter feed, too... but those will be few and far between.  And, because things continue to happen in this city, I suspect I’ll be reacting to events on both those platforms, too - just not via the blog.
SOME THOUGHTS...
Before I douse the fire under the old Cauldron I do want to leave you with a few thoughts - for whatever they are worth.
THANKS TO THE EMPLOYEES
First, I want to express my gratitude to every single employee of the City of Costa Mesa.  Much of what I've written has been about them.  I’ve gotten to know many of them quite well over the years.  The trauma many have endured, particularly over the past decade, has been very difficult for them, but they have persevered.  I’ve watched as previous council majorities tried to eviscerate the organization, leaving only anxious, beleaguered employees in the wake of that activity.  I’ve seen new folks come and go. I’ve seen many long term employees retire or simply seek a different pasture - I hesitate to call them “greener” - for a variety of reasons.  During all my contacts with City employees I’ve ALWAYS found them to be helpful, professional and eager to do a good job.  I will always be grateful for that.
THANKS TO YOU READERS
Second, to those of you have become loyal readers - thank you.  Those two little words hardly seem enough.  I have appreciated your participation in the issues of our times.  I know some of you balked when I was forced to require commentors to register, but many simply did the necessary confidential registration and continued to provide us with their insights.  As I’ve said many times, I’m very disappointed that folks with differing viewpoints refused to participate - comments that echo what I write are always welcome, but I much prefer a spirited, intelligent debate, with differing views provided.  Alas, that seldom happens.  On that note, I’ve ceased the registration requirement.  Anybody can now post a comment, but I still have to view each comment before approving it for publication.  If I think someone has attempted to use another’s identity I simply will not post it.  If someone posts language that will offend others, I will not post it.  I will post opposing viewpoints.  It really won’t be much of an issue, since there will be few entries on which to post comments.  In many cases I suspect our relationships will cease because I’ve stopped publishing this blog, since we have been bound together in our common interests on city issues and I’m walking away.  That will sadden me, but I do understand...
THE COUNCIL'S DOING OK, BUT...
Third, while I’m generally happy with the present configuration of the new City Council and the commissions and committees they have appointed, I’m not particularly pleased with how things have been going.  I agree with many of their plans for the direction this city will be taking for the next couple of years.  But, in my opinion, the strained relationships on the dais need to be resolved quickly.  The core of City Council - Mayor Katrina Foley, Mayor Pro Tem Sandra Genis and Councilman John Stephens - make up a group of dedicated, intelligent, clear thinkers who know how to frame arguments and persuade others.  I’m not unhappy that Jim Righeimer and Allan Mansoor are in the minority and I suspect we’ll see many 3-2 votes as the months progress... such is life.
MAJOR ISSUES AHEAD
There are several major issues that the new council majority will be working on that will effect all of us.  For example:
LIONS PARK PROJECT COSTS
The Lions Park Project, which replaces the existing Neighborhood Community Center with a new, state-of-the-art two-story library and converts the existing Donald Dungan Branch Library into a new, smaller community center.  The project also creates a new acre of public parkland.  Ever since this project was proposed the costs have escalated.  You all need to pay attention to that because there’s no doubt that trend will continue.


DISTRICT VOTING/DIRECTLY-ELECTED MAYOR
The Directly-elected mayor/District Voting scheme will begin implementation for the 2018 election cycle.  Candidates for that mayor slot are already jockeying for positions and folks are trying to figure out how they might run for the other vacancies.  It will take the next cycle, in 2020, to complete this metamorphosis.  Watch how this is managed by the City Council, and watch Jim Righeimer - who hijacked this process at the last minute and forced this new method onto the ballot - scramble for that mayor slot since he’s termed out of his council seat in 2018.


ROLLING BACK THE OVERLAYS
Undoing the Harbor and Newport Boulevard Overlays that were passed by the last regime as part of the General Plan update.  Those were developer-driven and tax our infrastructure, add horrendous amounts of traffic to our streets and are bad ideas for Costa Mesans.
SMALL LOT ORDINANCE
Revisiting the Small Lot Ordinance - another developer-driven change that has codified the dilution of protections for our neighborhoods to facilitate rampant growth throughout the city.
SOBER LIVING HOMES
Keep an eye on how the City deals with the whole Sober Living Home issue.  The most recent changes to our two ordinances might help, but there will certainly be lawsuits that will spring from our attempts to enforce our rules and that industry - a $35 billion business - will certainly test our resolve and our treasury.
HOMELESSNESS SOLUTIONS
How effectively will our City Council and staff deal with Homelessness in our city.  We’re told we have the greatest number of homeless individuals per capita than any other Orange County city.  Progress has been made, but there are no easy solutions to this issue.
PUBLIC SAFETY
Public Safety is a top priority for the City Council.  Hold their feet to the fire on the staffing issues - the CMPD continues to be understaffed by about 20%, and that’s based on the bogus staffing level imposed by the previous administration.  We currently have no staff Crime Scene Investigators (CSIs), so patrol officers are forced to perform those duties.  We may not reach that staffing level until the end of next year, and that will still put us about 10% below the proper staffing level necessary to properly protect our residents, businesses and visitors.  Costa Mesa Fire and Rescue seems to be on the right track now, which is encouraging.
OUTSOURCING AND CONSULTANT COSTS
Outsourcing continues to plague our city.  Right now our entire senior management level in Development Services is made up of very expensive - and very competent - contract employees.  Most of the engineering done in the city is done by contractors, as is much of the inspection and plan check services.  Contractors operate our jail and street sweeping services and, as of the end of June, will do all park and landscape maintenance, too.  It’s important to manage those resources carefully, to be sure the residents are being properly served.
MANY IMMEDIATE MEETINGS PENDING
As I fold this tent up now I will remind you that there are plenty of things that should require your immediate attention over the next few weeks. 
PLANNING COMMISSION MONDAY
Monday there is a Planning Commission meeting, which I’ve already written about. 
BUDGET MEETING TUESDAY
Tuesday, however, is a Special Study Session beginning at 5:00 p.m. in Conference Room 1A at which the City Council will dig into a proposed budget that increases spending by more than 7%, to a total of over $155 million.  Read the staff report HERE.
SENIOR COMMISSION ALSO TUESDAY
Tuesday morning there will be a meeting of the unnecessary (in my opinion) Senior Commission meeting at the Senior Center at 9:00 a.m. HERE.
COUNCIL MEETING ON THE 16TH
The following Tuesday - the 16th - there will likely be another council meeting.  
COMMUNITY BUDGET MEETING ON THE 18TH
On Thursday, the 18th, there will be a Community Budget meeting at 5:30 in Conference Room 1A - a time for residents to hear about the budget in a casual, participative atmosphere.  These have been sparsely-attended in past years, but represent an opportunity for residents to get up close and personal with the budget process, ask questions and take away a much clearer understanding of how spending our tax money is prioritized.
YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN... BUT THERE IS HELP
Since I will no longer be reporting about these meetings for you in the future, I suggest you visit the City website, HERE,  frequently and check the Calendar to see what’s happening.  And, click on the Costa Mesa Minute on the left side of the page for the latest information, presented by Dane Bora and the CMTV team.  Also, click HERE to be taken to the “e-notification” page (there’s also a link at the top of the City Home Page) where you can sign up for any and all city communications and meeting announcements.  I suggest you just check the box at the bottom to subscribe to them all.  Public Information Officer Tony Dodero is doing a good job of pumping out information - particularly in his Costa Mesa Snapshot each week.  If you can’t make it to meetings, be sure you watch them on live CMTV or live streamed on the City web site or view them later.  Another GREAT community resource is Diane Hill’s United Neighbors Newsletter.  To subscribe, write to her at unitedneighbors@cmprepared.com. and include a telephone number so she can contact you before including you on one of her subscription lists.
READ THE LOCAL COVERAGE
And please do avail yourselves of the excellent Costa Mesa reporting being done by Luke Money in the Daily Pilot and Louis Casiano, Jr. in the Orange County Register.  Both do a fine job of covering the most important issues, and do so without the burden of having to provide an opinion - just the facts.
BEWARE OF SOCIAL MEDIA SITES
Don’t be swayed by the bogus social media sites that have evolved in our city over the past couple years.  The Costa Mesa Public Square (CMPS), for example, was created by a resident, then was taken over by out-of-towners  intent on influencing the last election.  They failed, despite the fact that several elected officials and their appointed surrogates commented long and loud.  Some of the same folks swept in and snatched one site of reason and civilized discussion - Dennis Barton’s Costa Mesa site - when he passed away, and have turned it into a kind of Costa Mesa Public Square Annex.  Tom Johnson, mentioned above, opined when I was a guest on his radio show a year ago that the CMPS site was specifically created to counter the influence this blog was having on city issues.  I have no idea if that’s true or not, but others have attempted to defame the efforts that appeared here by creating blogs to compete - and they are long gone.
NOT AN EASY DECISION, BUT...
It is with very strong mixed emotions, and a lot of consultation and contemplation, that I’ve decided to stop blogging.  The site will remain open for your reference and, maybe, the occasional entry.  It has not been an easy decision, but is one I felt was necessary at this point in my life for the reasons mentioned above.  I wish you all well.  I will miss our interaction.  You probably have not heard the last of me, but - at least for awhile - this is adios.  Thanks, one more time, for your loyalty, friendship and your enthusiastic willingness to joust on issues.  You will always occupy a warm spot in my heart.  It’s been one of the great joys of my life to serve you.
ADIOS, AMIGOS...

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Wednesday, September 14, 2016

How To Spend The Budget Surplus?

READ LUKE'S ARTICLE
Take a few minutes to read Luke Money's article from the Daily Pilot, HERE, which outlines what some elected officials think should be done with the anticipated $11 million budget surplus.
MENSINGER SHOVELS THE MANURE
A big chunk of that surplus came from not hiring enough staff.  Mayor Steve Mensinger is quoted as saying, "Between outsourcing and being smart about hiring, we have maintained our service level with less people while doing more with technology."  What a load of manure!  By delaying hiring in public safety organizations, and by dragging their feet on contract negotiations for those groups, not only have response times increased, but the staff that remains is being worked to exhaustion with overtime.
ANTI-EMPLOYEE ENVIRONMENT
After their fiasco five years ago when they sent out illegal layoff notices to more than 200 employees, spent years in litigation and lost, it looks like the council majority - including the lamest of lame ducks, Gary Monahan (who shows you how he feels about the city in this image) - have figured out that they can get the same result by simply creating such a toxic work environment that people will leave - in droves - and they can be backfilled by consultants with no sense of ownership to what happens in our city.  Witness, for example, the recent approval of spending more than $900,000 for temporary staff in the Engineering Department and the $200,000 authorized to fill Claire Flynn's vacancy with a consultant!  The list goes on and on.
FALSE SAVINGS
Katrina Foley is quoted as stating that on a typical day in the last fiscal year we had 73 open positions!  She is correct when she opines that it would be a bad idea to put the vacancy savings into any kind of a project.
REBUILD THE RESERVES
In the past Mensinger and Mayor Pro Tem Jim Righeimer have criticized previous councils for "blowing through reserves" during the economic downturn - ignoring the fact that sound financial management permitted those reserves to be there when needed in the first place.   We are still more than $20 million short of that reserve level that kept the city afloat in those tough times.
UNFUNDED PENSION LIABILITY SMOKE SCREEN
And, this council majority has yapped about the Unfunded Pension Liability, using it as campaign fodder, since they took office more than 5 years ago and created a special committee to study and advise it on solutions.  So far - ZIP - NOTHING - NADA.  Not a thing has been done to chip into that pension liability.  It's all political rhetoric, aimed directly at the employees, whom they've painted as greedy union thugs and malcontents.  Shortly after being created that committee did have an extensive workshop on Municipal Bankruptcy - the only real solution to the unfunded pension liability problem short of a some kind of a miracle in the investment returns at Cal PERS.
PAVING, POTHOLES BEFORE PUBLIC SAFETY
No, this council majority goes merrily along, paving streets, ripping out new median plantings and re-planting and overbuilding so their developer-buddies profit while public safety suffers.  And, by "public safety" I don't mean the organizations that provide it - I mean those of us who expect it to be at a level where we feel safe in our city.  Today we don't - for lots of reasons.
CLUELESS ON THE GOLF COURSE
It's hard to understand how the two main drivers of this decline in our city, Righeimer and Mensinger, can actually grasp how their policies actually impact the residents as they go about building new Country Club mansions.  Their idea of "affordable housing" seems to be $800,000 "starter homes" popping up like clusters of mushrooms on the Westside of town.
WHAT ABOUT SOBER LIVING HOME ENFORCEMENT?
And what about the whole Sober Living Homes issue?  We have two ordinances which are NOT being enforced.  Is it because we don't have adequate Code Enforcement staffing?
 HOMELESSNESS?
And what about our Homelessness problem?  This is conjoined with the Sober Living Home issue and, while we're told efforts are being made to reduce the number of homeless in our city, a drive around town past almost any public park will show you that we are failing on this issue.  Should we be spending some cash on that issue?
DEPLETED SELF-INSURANCE FUND
Oh, yes.. how about replenishing the Self Insurance Fund, which has been depleted by the lawsuits that Righeimer and Mensinger have inflicted on our city as a result of their boneheaded schemes?  That seems to be a good idea - particularly if they continue on the path they've followed for the last half-decade.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
So, how do you feel about spending the budget surplus?  Should we stash some of it away in our reserves?  Should we pay down some of our pension liability?  Should we hire more public safety personnel?  Both Fire and Police are down significantly.  What should be do with that cash?

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Tuesday, August 30, 2016

Righeimer Gives Mansoor A Boost - Kinda



A "NON-POLITICAL" POLITICAL EVENT
Monday night Costa Mesa Mayor Pro Tem Jim Righeimer, who owes his presence on the City Council to former councilman Allan Mansoor who appointed him to the Planning Commission a few short months after he moved to town to give him a leg up on the competition, hosted a "Stand Up With Jim" evening in Conference Room 1A at City Hall at which Mansoor - a candidate for City Council in November - was a "Special Guest".  It was payback time.

LOST?
A funny sidebar... I arrived at City Hall at exactly the same time Mansoor and his lovely little family arrived.  I went directly to the conference room through the front door but, for some reason, Mansoor walked his little brood all the way around the building and entered in the back door of City Hall.  Could it be that he got lost?  Anyhow, the wife and kids hung out in the lobby except when checking in from time to time, as in this image.
A SMALL CROWD SHOWED UP
Anyhow, on with the show.  Fewer than 30 people - many of whom are avid Righeimer supporters - showed up for this non-political, political stunt.  There were many familiar faces - some of whom you'll recognize in these images.
RIGHEIMER CONTROLLED THE DIALOGUE
As is his style, Righeimer controlled the conversation and, occasionally, remembered that Mansoor was in the room and threw him a bone to answer.  He opened by introducing Mansoor, who then gave a little history of his involvement in The City, including his previous 8 years on the council.
PUBLIC SAFETY
One of the first subjects discussed public safety - specifically police staffing and crime.  Mansoor, a former Orange County Deputy Sheriff, told us that it takes a long time to find, hire and train a good officer and praised Chief Rob Sharpnack for not reducing his standards to speed up the process.

JERRY BROWN'S LEGACY - MORE CRIMINALS ON THE STREETS
There was a discussion of Prop. 57, the latest scheme by Governor Jerry Brown to unleash more criminals on our streets, following in the wake of Prop. 47 and AB 109.  At one point Mansoor told the audience that simply hiring more cops wouldn't necessarily result in less crime.  He told us that we needed to "adjust our expectations".  That got everyone's attention, particularly when one speaker asked if he meant we shouldn't hire more cops.  He backpeddled a little, and referred to the above-mentioned pieces of legislation that turned criminals loose and changed some crimes from felonies to misdemeanors.  Some of those crooks don't even get sent to jail.  Mansoor said they just laugh in our faces.
PETTY CRIMES NOT ENFORCED
Righeimer addressed those criminals on our streets and said, "They gotta eat", so they will commit petty crimes - auto burglaries, etc. - knowing that they won't go to jail.

HOMELESSNESS
Homeless was another issue discussed at length.  Righeimer said we've never really pulled out of the recession and blamed our homelessness situation on "attractants".  And, the problem is exacerbated by the proliferation of sober living homes in the city, some failed residents of which end up as homeless sometime criminals on our streets.
SOBER LIVING HOMES
Group Homes - sober living facilities - got a lot of discussion.  Righeimer explained some of the financial facts - very expensive drug tests, for example - that are paid for by insurance - ObamaCare.  Mansoor said there is no willingness to address the problem in Sacramento.  The lobby for this business is too strong.  Our two ordinances were discussed, as was the pending avalanche of request for Special Use Permits for existing units, asking for "reasonable accommodation".  The Solid Landings settlement was discussed, but Righeimer didn't acknowledge what activists have found out - that some of those homes have simply become occupied by other sober living entities.
BARRIE FISHER
Resident Barrie Fisher spoke of her neighborhood, which has several sober living homes adjacent to each other.  When asked by another resident about strategy to manage this issue, there was no real answer.

MARGARET MOONEY
Resident Margaret Mooney spoke up and complained that not enough was being done about homelessness.  Righeimer asked her what she wants to do, to which she replied we need permanent suppportive housing.  Righeimer brought up his red herring $20 million bond issue that was rejected.  Mansoor said we are willing to do our part, but that other cities should be encouraged to do their part.  He had no specifics about just how you incentivize other cities to take on some of the burden of homeless.
I KNOW IT ALL....
Righeimer reprised his old refrain about being on the OC Housing Commission for more than 12 years and that it's a tough problem because of all the attractants..  He suggested transitional housing, but Mooney told him HUD is not funding transitional housing.  He rejected the "voucher for life" solution.  I asked Mansoor if, during his tour in Sacramento, he saw any indication that the State is interested in solving what is clearly not just a local problem.  He said no - that state government is broken.

BATTER UP!
Ron Amburgey wondered to Mansoor if we still had a problem with illegal immigrants because that was his big cause when he was on the council.  Mansoor said we took more than 1300 criminals off our streets during his tour - clearly a softball tossed to him by a friend.  A resident wondered about the continuing costs of the Benito Acosta affair - which she supposed was over $800,000 at this time.

The meeting ended promptly at 7:30 after 90 minutes of spirited discussion - most of it by Righeimer.  It was clear that Mansoor didn't have many answers - not surprising.

FOLEY/GENIS TOMORROW
Tonight councilwomen Katrina Foley and Sandra Genis will hold a similar meeting in the same venue at the same time - 6:00 p.m.

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